?

Log in

No account? Create an account

Previous Entry | Next Entry

Stream of Consciousness, Episode 10.03

Holy frak this show. And it's only the 3rd episode of the season.


First I gotta say, Jensen Ackles is totally getting the hang of this directing thing. I actually forgot that he would have been directing himself during all of this, I was so caught up in the show. There were some intense scenes in this episode. What a pivotal story point to get to tell! *stands and applauds* Well done, Ackles. Well done.

I'm gonna start with the lists again because I have some thoughts to ramble about that some of you may not like so much. So, before you decide to either throw things at me or leave, how about I toss some bullet points your way. Then we can get down to business.

LIKES:

  • Dean in red. I don't think I mentioned that last week (since he's wearing the same clothes in this episode) but I really like him in red. Sets off his eyes really well.

  • In a similar vein, that moment Dean got free of the electrical room and rubbed his head, mussing his hair a bit. *bites lip* Don't judge me.

  • "Doctor." "Father."

  • The score at the beginning when Sam returns to the bunker with the blessed blood (that just so happens to be Dean's type). It was very Assassin's Creed-like, and I listen to a lot of Assassin's Creed music while writing. Bonus points for using the Brother's Theme while looking at family pics. Way to pluck the heart-strings, Show.

  • "I hate shots." "I hate demons."

  • The fact that the human blood injections actually caused Dean pain -- like more than emotional, weepy pain. Actual, barely-hanging-on, might-be-killing-him pain. Not just because I'm a bit of a sadist, but because he wasn't demonized the same way Crowley was - through years of hellish torment. It shouldn't have worked the same on him, and I was glad they showed a difference.

  • Every scene between Dean and Sam in the dungeon with Sam stalwartly standing up to demon!Dean's hurtful, harsh words and injecting him with the blood and Dean roaring in pain and resisting. Those were really well done.

  • Seeing what Sam was willing to do to find Dean. Now, it's not that I like what he was willing to do; I liked that we got to see it and formulate our own opinions about what that meant for Sam's character.

  • "It's Hell. You wait. It's what you do."

  • "Sometimes enough is whatever you have."

  • "We don't get to quit in this family. This family is all we have ever had."

  • "I did not see that coming."

  • Dean having those family pics in his room so easily accessible, as though he looked at them every day when he needed a boost. (Though...I do question the half-eaten pie still there and not at all fuzzy with mold after four months....)

  • The red light effect in the locked-down bunker.

  • The cat-and-mouse, hide-and-seek game between Dean and Sam in the bunker. Very intense. I actually gasped and covered my mouth when Dean nearly hit Sam with the hammer. And the look in their eyes when Sam held the demon-killing knife to Dean's throat? *shivers*

  • Dean's Jack Torrence-esque escape from the electrical room.

  • The way Dean prowled the bunker in search of Sam. Everything about his body language said predator.

  • "I see his point. Only humans can feel real joy, but also such profound pain. This is easier."

  • The moment we saw Dean again. The way Jensen just...released the posture and slipped free of the expression in his eyes that said demon!Dean and let us see the uncertainty and wariness and tension that was our Dean. Extraordinary.

  • "It's a long story. Crowley...stolen grace...there's a female in the car.... Another time."

  • "I'm going to get my brother some cholesterol and then I'm gonna get drunk." (Hell, I may join him after this.)

NOT SO MUCH:

  • Cas stepping in at the crucial moment. Now...please don't get me wrong. I think that Sam saved his brother; he did all the legwork and heavy lifting. In actual fact...Cas saved Sam, if you think about it, not Dean. But there was this really big part of me that wanted it to be completely Sam who saved his brother. However, that said, it does link Cas back to the brothers which is what I've been saying I wanted all this time, so, yeah. Whatever. Carry on.

  • The end of the episode. I'll go into that more later.

  • The anvil-like foreshadowing of Cas reminding Sam that Dean still has the Mark. It felt a bit like the Show was waving its arms at us all, don't worry, guys, I know we cured Dean really fast, but there are still things wrong with him they'll have to figure out...don't get mad!!

BURNING QUESTIONS:

  • How'd Dean/Crowley know that Sam was the one to talk Lester into making that crossroads deal? I missed that.

  • Am I the only one who was still watching Dean at the end all wary...waiting for a flash of black eyes or a devilish smile? As hard as it was to cure him, it almost seemed too easy at the same time. Just like I watched demon!Dean for a trace of humanity, I think I'll be watching Dean for a trace of demon for a bit.

  • Crowley and Cas. The fact that these two haven't just ended each other before now is honestly very puzzling to me. And now Crowley has saved Cas because he needed Dean to not be a demonic menace out there. It's curious, isn't it? Or am I just trying to see plot layers where there is simply convenient storytelling tropes?

  • Cas is full-on angel again, but it's with more borrowed grace, and we all know what happens with borrowed grace. What is this going to mean to him? The clock is reset, but ticking. How many of you think getting Cas' grace back is going to involve having to actually deal with Metatron? Yeah, me, too.

  • Does Crowley maintain a bit of his humanity? His little daydreaming Dean + Crowley montage does not really scream King of Hell to me, no matter how many vile betrayers he offed.

  • How, exactly, would they ever have known if the blood hadn't worked? What I mean is, they said that if the blessed blood didn't work, they'd have to kill Dean, but they simply kept injecting him over and over until he had track marks like a junkie and was human again. At what point would they have decided it wasn't working?

  • What. The. Hell. was up with that end scene? Another red-headed demonic baddie?? Pinning victims to the ceiling? What, did the YED and Abbadon have a daughter?

So, my thoughts. There are many.

The brothers, reunited. I read a quote on Goodreads once: "“It's a commonly expressed and rather nice, romantic notion that we are all sisters and brothers. Let's be real. Fact is, we might be better served to accept that we are all siblings. Siblings fight, pull each other's hair, steal stuff, and accuse each other indiscriminately. But siblings also know the undeniable fact that they are the same blood, share the same origins, and are family. Even when they hate each other. And that tends to put all things in perspective.” - Vera Nazarian

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I used to apply the dynamics between the Winchester brothers to myself and my siblings. Especially one particular sister, who has since written me off and no longer speaks to me. After awhile, though, things shifted with the brothers and I stopped being able to see the similarities between them and us and resigned myself to just watching the brothers for the sake of the story.

Tonight, I got a bit of that back. For example, Sam saying that this family is all we have ever had at first hit me as so hypocritical. I found myself almost physically resisting the fact that he said that line with such conviction. Really, Sam? REALLY? You who have walked away from your brother over and over again, who basically said flat-out that you weren't brothers last season, this is the argument you're going with? But then I thought about that sister who no longer speaks to me (the reasons are long and ridiculous and I won't bore you with them) and I realized that if she were ever to willingly reunite with me, it would be because she came to a similar realization.

And then I thought about what the last four(ish) months had to have been like for Sam. To start with, he was already regretting his stubborn stance at the end of last season. With his brother bleeding out in his arms, he said he'd lied about not being willing to save Dean. And then Dean goes and dies on him, which broke him in ways he hadn't truly anticipated. I mean, as far as Sam knew...this was dead dead. He's lived through Dean dying because of Hellhounds, but knew where he was going and why and from the moment he watched Dean be torn to shreds was formulating a plan to get him back. He's lived through Dean dying because of a time-loop, but he had the hope that stopping the time-loop stopped Dean from dying.

This death was terrifyingly final. And Sam was alone. And it wasn't at all what he'd claimed he wanted. It was painful and quiet and frightening and he was willing to make a deal to bring his big brother back because he just...couldn't move forward. He couldn't even try to move forward. Not without Dean. Nothing made sense for him without his brother in the world and he didn't know that until it was brought into stark reality for him.

But then, it wasn't just about Dean dying. Of course not. It had to be so much bigger than that.

Dean had to be missing and a demon and Sam pushed his moral compass to the absolute limits. Sure, he didn't mean to allow Lester to trade his soul, but...he knew that was a risk. And he took it anyway. And he ended up getting someone killed and their soul damned to Hell. But he did it because family is all he's ever had. And that truth hit him like a lightning strike the moment it was taken from him. And he had to get it back. He had to get Dean back. No matter what.

So, I got it. Eventually, I got it and I realized that it wasn't hypocritical of him to say that; it was a realization coming to life. And now? Sam has completely annihilated any claims to the contrary. He can no longer say he wouldn't do whatever it took to save Dean. Because he did. He has. Exact same circumstances, he did what Dean did to save his brother. And he did it because family is all they've ever had.

When things get back to whatever they now define as 'normal' I hope there is the opportunity to talk about that. Maybe not in a chick-flick moment, caring-sharing way, but somehow recognize the fact that Dean agreeing to have an angel possess Sam to save his life and Sam talking some dude into making a crossroads deal to find Dean...really not all that different. It all comes down to intent, boys.

As for demon!Dean's hurtful words and accusations? I know that they were like...80% demon-fueled, but part of me had to wonder to the truth of some of that. It was mean, cruel and not at all something Dean would have said to Sam without supernatural influence, but I could actually see where Dean would have honestly felt some of that. I thought back to that sister and how sometimes I miss her and sometimes I am angry with her and sometimes I just...quit her. She causes me pain and pain is really not fun, so maybe having her cut me out of her life is actually the best thing to happen to my life.

Dean's, Let me go live my life. I won't bother you. What do you care? comment is what first caught me. The first image of demon!Dean we saw was someone who really just wanted to be. He wasn't all innocently off in the countryside raising bees, sure, but it hurt to be human and he was tired of hurting. He just wanted to drink beer and have sex and eat chicken wings and not care about what happened to anyone. A-N-Y-O-N-E. Of course, from there, and due in part to Crowley's manipulation, Dean got a bit more dangerous and violent, but part of me wonders if Crowley had left him alone, how much trouble would demon!Dean actually have caused. He really just wanted to go live his (demonized) life.

His 'what do you care' question was, it felt, actually rather genuine. Sam put a lot of effort into conveying to Dean that they were basically business associates only, hunting together simply because there were so few hunters left. They were not brothers. That is what Dean carried with him right up until the moment of his death and one I lied apology wouldn't have erased that for him. I can see where Dean -- demon or not -- would have been confused as to why 'saving' him mattered at all to Sam.

The litany of purposefully hurtful words he tossed Sam's way, I could see kernels of truth in them. Especially what he said about John. I think there is pain in there about what John's choices did to their lives that Dean hasn't begun to tap, and probably never will while actually Dean. The thing he said about Sam's existence sucking the life out of Dean's life...painful, just painful, but also? I can see why he might think that. Since, really? Dean has had no life. And he lost any semblance of choice when he was four.

It's like the dark thoughts you never allow yourself to recognize you have...the flashes of frustration or selfishness that you feel and choose to ignore. The words that float to the surface in moments of anger or weariness or sadness. You don't truly mean them, but you're human and they appear and the feelings are there for just that second and then the good side of you or the kind side or whatever creates the light within you squashes them and it's as though they never were. That's what burbled out of demon!Dean.

And I think that's why it hurt Sam so much to hear them. Because he knew that on levels his brother would never acknowledge and probably didn't even truly recognize, Dean actually felt some of those things. That's why those scenes were so awesomely intense. Jensen and Jared really brought their A-games to that interaction because I found myself feeling for Sam and Dean...while Dean was a demon!

I wonder how much of his time as a demon Dean will retain. Because he really didn't want to be human again, and I think Cas was right: it was because it hurt too much. Dean -- our Dean -- is more often than not in constant, soul-weary pain. He carries everything inside of him and there's no one he thinks can help him bear the burden. He has no Samwise Gamgee to carry him; he is Samwise. And now that he's back in that space, if he also remembers everything he did as a demon? Good grief.

Not to mention he has to once more be human with the Mark and no Blade, and we all saw how great that went for him last season. Sam saved him, and I'm glad to have him back, but I've gotta wonder how glad Dean will be. He wanted to die, after all. He wanted to die rather than become what the Mark was turning him into. And not only did he NOT die, but he became the thing he feared most and he's gotta carry that around with him. This is big.

Dean being cured. I have to say I'm happy and suspicious at the same time. I want Dean back, but I'm honestly surprised that it happened so early in the season and that makes me wonder if there is going to be any latent demon-ness in him. Clearly we still have the Mark to contend with, but I don't think it will be possible for him to just be...fine. Just be Dean again after that. After dying and demonizing and going through the cure. I really hope we see the fall-out of all of this for him.

Cas being involved in Dean's being saved. Okay, I know. Cas is part of the tribe. His fate is tied to the Winchesters in more than one way. And Sam called him for help and we needed to get him connected to the boys again and all of that. I get it. It's cool, it is. I just wish he would have shown up after Sam had pushed enough blessed blood into Dean that he'd brought him back without Cas swooping in like a superhero and saving Sam from getting hammered. So to speak. Plus it's all really confusing that Crowley, in effect, saved Dean, too. Because he saved Cas, who saved Sam, who injected Dean for long enough that he came back. I know Crowley claimed he simply wanted Dean "taken care of" which could have meant killing him if the blood didn't work, but...after that mancrush montage, part of me doubts he ever really thought it wouldn't work.

Cas getting borrowed grace again. At this point? I think I'm just glad that he's not sickly and dying anymore. I don't know what it will end up meaning for him, though I'm pretty sure we'll have to see Metatron again...and probably Hannah. Speaking of, she doesn't have borrowed grace and is not sickly and dying...how is it that Adena chick was able to kick both their asses? Why wasn't Hannah able to fight back, use her angel powers a bit? For that matter, why were they driving around getting lost on maps she couldn't read? Why didn't she just zap them to the bunker? Is there a power loss there I am missing?

I will say, though, that I thought Cas' whole letting her down easy method was sweet, if a little awkward.

Crowley. I don't know. He's still the King of Hell, but is pining away for Dean? He's killing all those who betrayed him, but then has a demon who protests the demon killing and would rather set himself on fire than live in Crowley's Hell? He saves Cas (again)? I mean, WT...H?? We have angels killing out of vengeance, demons basically flagellating in protest of killing...black is white, up is down, dogs and cats are living together....

The ending. Okay, so here's the thing. I will admit I wanted a brotherly hug, or some relieved I missed you, man emotion from the brothers. It's my soft, fanfic-writer's heart rearing its head, there. However, I get that after all they've been through, it wasn't the right time for a Winchester hug and one perfect tear. Dean was still rattled and trying to figure out where he was, when he was, why he was, who he was. Sam was exhausted and had just spent hours trying to de-demonize his brother without getting his head smushed in. SO, yeah. I get it. And ending it with Dean and Cas connecting with Cas advising Dean to rest and heal was a nice way to bring Cas fully into the picture. I would have been totally okay with that after the emotional wringing out experienced watching the rest of the episode.

But then...that totally random shot of what will probably end up being The Big Bad?? What the hell was that? Is there some significance to Tulsa that I'm not remembering? The fact that she is a she and a ginger has me frowning and docking their originality points. But, the fact that her victims are pinned to the ceiling actually has me intrigued. We haven't seen that in awhile. So, while my interest may be minorly piqued at this point regarding the possible new Big Bad...I still really wish they'd ended on one or both of the brothers. It's a minor quibble in the midst of a fantastic episode, though, so I'm willing to shrug it off and see what else is in store for us with The Rest of the Story. ;)

Okay, I think that's it for now! Can't wait to see your thoughts and chat about this epi with you. Thanks for reading!

Slainte!

Comments

( 69 Tall Tales — Tell Me A Story )
Page 1 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>
yohkobennington
Oct. 22nd, 2014 04:51 am (UTC)
Yeah, all of this.
gaelicspirit
Oct. 22nd, 2014 05:07 am (UTC)
*virtual fist bump*
(no subject) - yohkobennington - Oct. 22nd, 2014 06:02 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - gaelicspirit - Oct. 22nd, 2014 12:35 pm (UTC) - Expand
borgmama1of5
Oct. 22nd, 2014 05:15 am (UTC)
One of the most painful things demon!Dean said to Sam was about how Sam was responsible for their mother's death...I clearly remember at some point after Sam found out what happened in the nursery that Dean absolved Sam of blame for that...so those words would really have rocked Sam, suggesting that the reassurance Sam had believed from Dean may have actually been just an act.

I am finding myself suffering some...actor bleed? I was surely in the moment during those intense bunker scenes--and yet a tiny part of me was going, "wow, Jared looks is really showing Sam's struggle to not show how wrecked he is over what Dean is saying" and "the way Jensen is moving is so clearly not Dean-like, how does he do that?"

My admiration of the acting didn't diminish the emotional impact of the episode for me, I just was very conscious of its awesomeness!

So, when I turned off the TV I was really frustrated that we didn't get just 20 seconds of Sam and Dean talking or even just acknowledging each other. I was angry that the writers deprived me of my reunited brothers closure...but upon reflection, it was omitted to purposefully leave the viewer unresolved because that is exactly the state of the boys--very off-balance. So I have to give kudos for leaving the viewers in the same emotional place as the boys, much as I don't like it...

Dean said that Crowley told him how Sam had gotten Lester caught by the crossroads demon. 10 minutes before the show started I read a short fic--here--http://duckondebut.livejournal.com/15239.html-- that had the exact same premise, Sam encouraging a civilian to make a crossroad deal so Sam could grab the demon...and failing the person and I thought it was brilliant--and then it went that way in the show! and I was blown away, it was such a perfect fail to guilt Sam with!

And again, clever writing in setting that reveal up with Lester while demon!Dean killed him in episode 2!

Crowley's got some problems...

Not sure I completely understand what the demon was trying to prove by immolating himself...What effect did he think it would have on Crowley?

I have to say that I really liked the directional style of long, steady takes instead of the rapid cutting we've been getting. Keeping the camera focused on one of the brothers during those dungeon scenes really kept me right there emotionally in a way that cutting back and forth wouldn't have.

You got this up really fast!
gaelicspirit
Oct. 22nd, 2014 12:41 pm (UTC)
You got this up really fast!

The hubs put Mo Chuisle to bed last night so I was able to watch in real time, rather than having a delayed viewing as I usually do. :)

I am finding myself suffering some...actor bleed

I know what you mean. I usually get completely lost in the character (and that's one of the reasons I don't so much like following the actors on social media because it tends to remind me that they're, y'know real people) but once in awhile I slip and see the performance. Like you said, it doesn't always lessen my enjoyment of it (it enhanced it in this case), but it does make me more aware.

Yeah, the feelings we have of delayed satisfaction will help us understand (I believe) how the boys are relating to each other moving forward.

I have to admit that I never thought Sam had used another person to summon a crossroads demon. I honestly figured that when he trapped one there at the beginning he'd summoned it. The reality was so much more brutal and fantastic for the character -- and I find myself constantly impressed by the precognition many fanfic writers have when they pen their "what if" scenarios. Well done, fic writer!! :)

I loved the way Jensen focused on the characters in this. And I LOVED the way he scared the crap out of me during the bunker-hunt as Sam turned and BAM! Hammer to the wall! Which could have been his head! That was really shot nicely.

Thanks for commenting! Always look forward to what you have to say. :)
(no subject) - quickreaver - Oct. 22nd, 2014 05:41 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - amberdreams - Oct. 22nd, 2014 06:20 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - quickreaver - Oct. 22nd, 2014 06:24 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - amberdreams - Oct. 22nd, 2014 06:27 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - gaelicspirit - Oct. 23rd, 2014 07:41 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - amberdreams - Oct. 23rd, 2014 08:01 pm (UTC) - Expand
(Anonymous)
Oct. 22nd, 2014 06:15 am (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that the reason she can't zap anywhere it's because when they fell all of the Angels lost their wings.
gaelicspirit
Oct. 22nd, 2014 12:33 pm (UTC)
Oh, good point. I guess I had (incorrectly) assumed that when Heaven was re-opened and the angels took back over they were 'healed' or whatnot. But then that would mean Castiel wouldn't have needed to use the playground porthole access to head up to Heaven, no would it?

Silly Gaelic. ;)
hunenka
Oct. 22nd, 2014 08:01 am (UTC)
Yes to everything you said :-)

The litany of purposefully hurtful words he tossed Sam's way, I could see kernels of truth in them.

I think that too, and this got me thinking - hoping - that maybe admitting and accepting these kernels of truth might help Dean somehow. You know, all the hurtful stuff Sam said to Dean in s9, there was a lot of truth to that too, and in saying it out loud and saying it to Dean, Sam was able to set up some boundaries , to create new rules, to get... healthier somehow? Say "This isn't okay. I don't want this."

So what if demon!Dean saying all that stuff, especially about John's brainwashing, about their losing battle or about always having to save Sam, gave Dean a chance to look back at his life and maybe say "I don't want that anymore" and set up some boundaries of his own?

Yeah, I know, keep dreaming. Because what would the show be if the Winchesters weren't majorly messed up in some way or another, right :-)
gaelicspirit
Oct. 22nd, 2014 12:44 pm (UTC)
So what if demon!Dean saying all that stuff, especially about John's brainwashing, about their losing battle or about always having to save Sam, gave Dean a chance to look back at his life and maybe say "I don't want that anymore" and set up some boundaries of his own?

Wouldn't it be great to have a positive outcome for Dean come out of all of this? Some kind of actual healing in a way that he never would have expected? I join you in your dreaming theory, because you're right: they have always been and will always be messed up in some way. But still...it's a nice thought.
(no subject) - hunenka - Oct. 22nd, 2014 12:57 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - quickreaver - Oct. 22nd, 2014 06:16 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - hunenka - Oct. 22nd, 2014 06:29 pm (UTC) - Expand
apieceofcake
Oct. 22nd, 2014 12:08 pm (UTC)
Sam and Dean and Jared and Jensen were awesome! Dean stalking around the bunker was scary! The angels..I'm sorry I'm getting to the point where I just don't care and I'm resenting the screentime they have. Crowley is more human than he cares to admit :-) xx.
gaelicspirit
Oct. 22nd, 2014 12:45 pm (UTC)
Hey! It's great to see you! And yes, they were most definitely awesome. :)

Thanks for coming by!! :)
vansgroi
Oct. 22nd, 2014 05:45 pm (UTC)
Kudos to you and your ramble. I couldn't have said anything better.

((Am I the only one who was still watching Dean at the end all wary...waiting for a flash of black eyes or a devilish smile?)) Nope, you weren't the only one. I was right there with you.


As far as Cas intervening--I agree that I wish Sam could have been the sole person behind Dean's cure. However, I guess when you think about it, all Cas did was grab Demon Dean and restrain him (thus saving Sam's life!) and it seemed like he merely helped Sam secure Dean in the dungeon again. I didn't see that Cas did much else than that as Sam still had to pump Dean full of blessed blood.


I loved the episode. I thought it was intense and extremely well acted--both on Jensen's part and Jared's. It had a nice tension to it as well as some touching moments. I loved Demon Dean's growl. And Jensen can just get this fathomless, dark look in his eyes that is just incredible...and chilling.

I'm not at all sorry that the demon Dean storyline is somewhat done. I hated that they made him a demon in the first place and, while I've enjoyed demon Dean and Jensen's amazing portrayal over the first 3 episodes, I'm happy to have human Dean back. Was the cure too quick? Eh, maybe. But I found those scenes so intense that that doesn't bother me.

What Sam did with Lester was supposed to be so monstrous, but I wasn't all that bothered. I think Carver may have over titillated a bit in that regard. Yes, it was in the sense that he manipulated Lester, but Lester was awfully quick to jump at that deal. So much so that Sam couldn't stop him as he intended. I LOVED the symmetry of demon Dean killing Lester last week and then finding out Sam had a part in Lester making that deal to begin with.

I think there's lots of story yet to tell and I'm looking forward to it. I will admit though that I find the Cas/Hannah/angels story line boring.

Incidentally, for what it's worth, I did read a tweet (from Robbie Thompson maybe?) saying he couldn't wait till we got to see the next episode, Paper Moon, because we'd get some nice bro moments.
gaelicspirit
Oct. 23rd, 2014 08:38 pm (UTC)
Thanks for reading and taking time to comment. :)

Yeah, that's the conclusion I came to while watching as well -- Cas didn't save Dean, he saved Sam. Which I'm okay with. :)

The one and only regret I have to Dean no longer being a demon is that I don't want them to drop his storyline all together as they did Purgatory (et al). But! I think that his still having the MoC will help keep that from happening.

Thanks for sharing the tweet about the bro moments. I look forward to that. :)
quickreaver
Oct. 22nd, 2014 06:13 pm (UTC)
...the fact that Dean agreeing to have an angel possess Sam to save his life and Sam talking some dude into making a crossroads deal to find Dean...really not all that different. It all comes down to intent, boys. Respectfully, wow, no. Not even. Dean took away Sam’s right to his own autonomy, through deception. And Sam never once lied to Lester about what making a crossroads deal was all about; he just intended to stop the guy before the deal was sealed, but Sam was too slow. It’s not all about intention. Road to Hell and all that. It’s about “You are what you do.” But that’s just my spin on it! Obviously, I come from a Sam-ward leaning camp, and it’s cool that we all favor different viewpoints of events on the show. Makes for spirited discussions! I just like popping over here, now and again, to add a different perspective.

As for demon!Dean's hurtful words and accusations? I know that they were like...80% demon-fueled... Mmm, I’d say more like 50/50, to be honest. As I said to Betty above, Dean seems to keep tabs on Sam’s sins far more than Sam does Dean’s. Sam will pull out the umbrella “then we can’t be family” card because he knows it’ll hurt Dean in one fell swoop, but Dean can, and does, itemize. Again, it’s what brothers do, and they just have different ‘fighting’ styles, those two. I watch this dynamic in action every day: I have three teen-aged sons and BOY, can they bicker.

His 'what do you care' question was, it felt, actually rather genuine. Sam put a lot of effort into conveying to Dean that they were basically business associates only, hunting together simply because there were so few hunters left. They were not brothers. Again, I’m gonna call shenanigans on this one. I’ll come back to “It’s not what you say, it’s what you do.” Sam put effort into saying they weren’t family, but repeatedly went on to behave differently. But he said what he said because he was hurt by Dean’s actions and struck back, so yeah, Dean’s ‘what do you care’ was genuine. He was throwing Sam’s words back in his face. So Sam, once again, proceeded to behave like a brother and save Dean from himself. (Remember, Dean took the MoC all on his own volition...)

On an agreeable note, though (because I swear, I’m not always a big ball of dissension), I loved your thoughtfulness about Sam’s apparent hypocrisy. Even I felt it, and you summed up exactly why it wasn’t actually bullpucky, and the realizations Sam may have made to get him there. I also agree about everything Cas-wise. Deus ex angelus, eh? I do wish they’d have utilized him differently.
gaelicspirit
Oct. 23rd, 2014 09:16 pm (UTC)
Obviously, I come from a Sam-ward leaning camp, and it’s cool that we all favor different viewpoints of events on the show.

I think this point of yours is the crux of our differences in viewpoint on the brothers' relationship, or the show in general. Everyone sees the world through their individual filters. My filter for this particular TV Show happens to be tweaked toward Dean and what I believe is his perspective. Doesn't make it right or only any more than your viewpoint of things from Sam's perspective makes your thoughts right or only.

I do appreciate your taking time to come by, read, and comment knowing that my lean is toward Dean and would most likely run somewhat cross-ways to your take on things. It does make for interesting conversations.

As for your first counter-point, I see where you might think what you articulated, but I still come back to intent. Dean did not intend to take away Sam's autonomy when he allowed the angel to possess him. His focus was on saving Sam's life. Sam did not intend for Lester to die when he coerced him into summoning the crossroad demon. His focus was on finding Dean. So, yes, I agree on the road to Hell and whatnot, but from my perspective, if we applied "you are what you do" to these two, they would both be monsters.

To me, the only way they are going to find a mutually-respectful balance is if they recognize and accept what intentions drove each other's actions. It was a focus on (from their individual perspectives) each other. One could argue the selfish aspects of their choices endlessly, but I think that no matter what filter we're looking at the specifics through, we can at least agree that the brothers are trying to find ways to help each other.

As you broke down more, I will just say that I'm not sure if one way is more or less hurtful than the other -- meaning the umbrella effect vs itemization. As the oldest of five, multiple bickering techniques were enacted among each of us at various times and there were ways we could find to hurt each other and connect to each other that I have seen emulated on the show many times.

To your last point, you're right. Dean did take the MoC all on his own volition. Just as Sam started drinking demon blood without being forced. So, I don't know that either of us can sit here and say, "Brother X is better/worse than Brother Y because of reason W."

Honestly, after 9 seasons and going into 10 years, there is too much they have both done and said to compare them anymore. We each have our preferences, sure. Mine is, clearly, Dean, so my Ramble (which is simply a collection of my own opinions) is going to be drafted through that filter. I often times struggle to see through Sam's eyes, and I welcome when those who take time to read the Ramble and differ with my thinking offer their thoughts. It helps me see things differently, or in ways I hadn't thought to before.

But, that doesn't make either of us wrong. Just makes us different.

Thanks for taking the time to come over here and share your thoughts!
(no subject) - quickreaver - Oct. 23rd, 2014 11:15 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - gaelicspirit - Oct. 24th, 2014 04:13 pm (UTC) - Expand
amberdreams
Oct. 22nd, 2014 06:23 pm (UTC)
I too was puzzled by the seemingly random 'insert redheaded baddie here' right at the end like that. That was unsettling and not in a 'wow what's that, how intriguing' sort of way. I wasn't blown away by this one, mainly because I think I was expecting too much after last week's corker.
madebyme_x
Oct. 23rd, 2014 04:43 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I have no idea what the red-head was about. As soon as I saw the blood drops on the hand and then the bodies on the ceiling my mind went straight to Azazel. But he's long gone right? So why use the same (iconic) imagery unless it's linked?

So what are we dealing with - Azazel reincarnated? Azazel's wife/sister/daughter? One of Azazel's long forgotten 'special' children? I guess we'll find out soon. But yeah, the timing wasn't great.
(no subject) - gaelicspirit - Oct. 23rd, 2014 09:33 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - madebyme_x - Oct. 24th, 2014 09:48 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - gaelicspirit - Oct. 24th, 2014 04:15 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - gaelicspirit - Oct. 23rd, 2014 09:32 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - amberdreams - Oct. 23rd, 2014 09:43 pm (UTC) - Expand
thruterryseyes
Oct. 22nd, 2014 07:30 pm (UTC)
I read this this morning at work. I can't remember everythign I wanted to comment on so i'll just say everything you said was right. And after reading this I realized I enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I did. Predatory Dean....

I would have been running thru the bunker going"I'm HERE!! I'm RIGHT HERE!!!!"
gaelicspirit
Oct. 23rd, 2014 09:34 pm (UTC)
Heck yeah. He could prowl the halls for me anytime. ;)
justlikeswimmn
Oct. 22nd, 2014 11:04 pm (UTC)
Well written, Gaelic! An intense, enjoyable epi for sure. I wonder at Dean's choice of a hammer rather than large knife - why hammer?

As has been said before, Demons lie except when the truth is more painful. What Dean said was twisting events to maximize Sam's pain for entertainment. Causing emotional pain to others is a great pleasure for Demon Dean, not something that is present (or at least overt) in human Dean. I love how Ackles has brought out this aspect, a human fault taken to the nth degree.

De-demonized Dean seemed deflated, emasculated compared to his Demon alternate. I wonder if he his emotional senses have been dulled as well. How much of the spirit of 'real' Dean is left? How much soul damage has been done by the mark, death, demonizing, and de-demonizing? Does he even have a complete soul anymore, since he died? He wanted to stay a demon, will he seek a return to that state, like an addict lusting after a drug?

So many questions! Loving this season! I hope the show explores Dean's demonic/mark journey more, rather than brushing it away (like they did his purgatory experience). We'll see!
gaelicspirit
Oct. 24th, 2014 04:17 pm (UTC)
Thank you! :)

The hammer...so, in thinking about all the ways that would be heavy and brutal and cruel, beating someone to death with a hammer would hit the top 5 in my mental weapon's list. He had such a sadistic look on his face, too, when he plucked it out of the drawer.

What Dean said was twisting events to maximize Sam's pain for entertainment. Causing emotional pain to others is a great pleasure for Demon Dean, not something that is present (or at least overt) in human Dean.

Very good point.

How much of the spirit of 'real' Dean is left? How much soul damage has been done by the mark, death, demonizing, and de-demonizing? Does he even have a complete soul anymore, since he died? He wanted to stay a demon, will he seek a return to that state, like an addict lusting after a drug?

All very good questions!! I can't wait to find out! :)

Thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts.
kryptynight
Oct. 22nd, 2014 11:06 pm (UTC)
Hello again!

This was such an intense episode! A friend (that I got hooked on the show) came over to watch with me this week, and I guess she's just not as invested as me. I say this because every time I whined just a little in pain over the hurtful words that demon!Dean was throwing at Sam like bullets from a gun, she laughed at me.... LAUGHED! I was wincing, flinching and crying out in pain...PAIN, and she LAUGHED at me.

I, too, felt sorry for both Sam and Dean (even though he was a demon). For the first two episodes, I spent the whole time (every single time I watched them...btw, I'm totally ashamed to admit how high that number actually is)looking for every single minuscule sign that OUR Dean was in there somewhere. But, this episode? Yeah, it showed me that no... there wasn't nearly as much of OUR Dean in there as I wanted there to be.

At first, I was not happy to see Cas show up just in time to save the day. However, that whole burning blue eye - black eye growl-y thing... yeah, that was pretty dayum awesome. And, I didn't see it as him saving Dean. Nope, I saw that as him saving Sam, because I had come to the conclusion that Sam wasn't going to give up on The Cure working. Nuh uh, Sam was going to save his brother or DIE trying. He intended there to be only two possible outcomes.... either he left that bunker WITH his brother... his BROTHER again... or he didn't leave there alive. I mean, that was the only option after he locked himself in there with a predator... a predator that just happened to be Dean Winchester, pretty much the most lethal human being in their whole universe. (Case in point... in Dark Side of the Moon, the hunter, Walt says "Do you wanna spend the rest of your life knowing Dean Winchester is on your ass, cause I don't.")

I totally got why Crowley saved Cas. I even had to explain it to my friend. Crowley had to save face with his demons after demon!Dean basically gave him the spanking to end all spankings, but he knew that if demon!Dean wasn't stopped, he'd usurp the throne of Hell right out from under Crowley's ass. And, Crowley likes being the King of Hell... a LOT. And, he knew that Sam might... just might... need help curing Dean. Enter Cas. I didn't question Crowley's motives at all. I mean, just like always, it was all about Crowley in the end.

With the scene at the end, I first thought it was Abaddon. Then realized it must be Rowena, the witch. The big bad that Jeremy & Co. hinted at while dealing out all that foreplay over hellatus. Which btw, I finally complained about to friends saying... enough of the foreplay, I wish they'd just f##k me already.... and boy did they. I needed a cigarette after the premiere and I haven't smoked in over 6 years.

Holy Crap! I've really rambled on this time, when all I really needed to say was - You are soooo totally RIGHT! Go on with your bad self! Well, or maybe a simple - Hear,hear! would've done the trick.

Until next time,
~T
gaelicspirit
Oct. 24th, 2014 04:25 pm (UTC)
Yay! A Ramble on my Ramble! Love it. :)

For reason you just articulated, I watch our show alone. I kick my hubs from the room, make him go watch soccer or get on his computer or something, and immerse myself in our Winchesters. Because I could not be responsible for what I might do/say if someone were to laugh at the way I react to these guys. *laughs at self*

However, that whole burning blue eye - black eye growl-y thing... yeah, that was pretty dayum awesome.

Wasn't it?? And yeah, I am with you. Cas saved Sam. And I was totally okay with that...just had to have that knee-jerk erf moment that he was there before I got over myself and realized that he needed to be there.

I get why Crowley saved Cas -- I'm just wondering why they keep going to that well, story-wise. If you were to take it down to basics, they are mortal enemies, Cas and Crowley, angel and demon, and yet they've worked together, protected each other, saved each other...I just find it really intriguing that from a story perspective they haven't killed one another yet. Makes me wonder what's in store.

What's this about Rowena? I haven't heard anything about that. Is that something from an interview or something? Tell me more! *puts chin in hands and waits*

See you next week??
(no subject) - (Anonymous) - Oct. 24th, 2014 04:51 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - gaelicspirit - Oct. 24th, 2014 05:39 pm (UTC) - Expand
cappy712
Oct. 22nd, 2014 11:14 pm (UTC)
Burning questions -
How'd Dean/Crowley know that Sam was the one to talk Lester into making that crossroads deal? I missed that.

When Crowley was at the bar talking to Dean about the wife - he stopped Dean before he left and said oh there is something more I have to tell you. (Since we didn't see the conversation - we can take that Crowley knew it was Sam who orchastrated the deal and told Dean what was going on.)

Now with that said - my question is was Deanmon really pissed as Lester? or was there a little bit of Dean left in him that with Lester being a "douche" as Dean would have called it or was he in a way protecting Sam by killing Lester instead of the wife. Lester might have lost his soul but the way he was acting and living but keeping the fool from living might have been Sam's saving grace.


Am I the only one who was still watching Dean at the end all wary...waiting for a flash of black eyes or a devilish smile? As hard as it was to cure him, it almost seemed too easy at the same time. Just like I watched demon!Dean for a trace of humanity, I think I'll be watching Dean for a trace of demon for a bit.

Yep I was waiting for Sam to finish saying the blessing with Lustra and it never came. So yeah wondering a bit about it but since the Holy Water didn't hurt him like it did at the beginning. we will have to wait and see.


Crowley and Cas. The fact that these two haven't just ended each other before now is honestly very puzzling to me. And now Crowley has saved Cas because he needed Dean to not be a demonic menace out there. It's curious, isn't it? Or am I just trying to see plot layers where there is simply convenient storytelling tropes?

Cas just couldn't justify taking an Angel's grace again and since Crowley did the deed, it's in a way of helping him help himself.

Cas is full-on angel again, but it's with more borrowed grace, and we all know what happens with borrowed grace. What is this going to mean to him? The clock is reset, but ticking. How many of you think getting Cas' grace back is going to involve having to actually deal with Metatron? Yeah, me, too.

Yep in some ways I'm sure that Metatron is going to be involved in some way and I'm still voting for just the smiting and leaving it be but then again, Cas is correct about the deaths of angels need to stop. I'm looking forward to something they find being able to open the gates of heaven again and allowing the angels to get their power back, you know link back up to the collective (hehe star trek bit there). Not a big fan of Cas and Hannah but still happy they are working to find the angels but in some ways the angels on earth if they choose to stay, it should be their choice.


Does Crowley maintain a bit of his humanity? His little daydreaming Dean + Crowley montage does not really scream King of Hell to me, no matter how many vile betrayers he offed.

Crowley has been off since the last trial and the blood almost making him human. The way he was dealing with Hell before Dean changed when they were in the restaurant - Dean said hell isn't complicated. Shower sex was complicated - in that conversation Crowley was already a bit off and he was trying to get hell under control but the upheaval with Abbadon was just bad for "business" so to speak. He needed a break to Howl at the moon too!

How, exactly, would they ever have known if the blood hadn't worked? What I mean is, they said that if the blessed blood didn't work, they'd have to kill Dean, but they simply kept injecting him over and over until he had track marks like a junkie and was human again. At what point would they have decided it wasn't working?

I don't know, they really didn't talk about how many hours Sam had been giving Dean the blood. When the trials were going to be done it was 8 hours of shots with the final bloody fist, what happened to the fist? What happened to the prayer? They didn't do it so how??
cappy712
Oct. 22nd, 2014 11:14 pm (UTC)
continued due to the lack of room - wow never did that before....


What. The. Hell. was up with that end scene? Another red-headed demonic baddie?? Pinning victims to the ceiling? What, did the YED and Abbadon have a daughter?

hehe, not a daughter per say but maybe a follower who was all along the lines of YED and Lilith's plans for releasing Satan but since that fell through, she's taking advantage of the open door so to speak that the feud between Crowley and Abbadon left wide open.

Something to think about too - the fact that Gavin didn't die could also be playing a part of the whole problem too.

This episode was great and yeah you are correct - wow it's only the 3rd episode. Man are we in for a ride this season.

Thank you for sharing.
(no subject) - gaelicspirit - Oct. 24th, 2014 04:29 pm (UTC) - Expand
iontas
Oct. 23rd, 2014 12:26 am (UTC)
Sorry for being so late, I had to leave town for a funeral.

Excellent ramble! As someone else mentioned, I think the angels don't have their wings. They didn't reverse the spell of Metatron, they just retook heaven. As for Crowley, he has always straddled the fence. I don't know if he has any real feelings for our guys or if he just always likes to keep his options open. If he always remains the least bad big bad, then our guys will always help to eliminate any other big bad that tries to usurp him.

I think the reason they showed the big bad was because it contradicted what Cas just said to Dean.

Dean is really back to square one with the Mark of Cain. It will slowly kill him and turn him into a demon again, so they have work to do. I wonder when he is going to tell Sam that. Sam may think that as long as the blade is around he can be ok. I don't think that Sam knew that the mark was killing him.

I wonder if they brought Cas into the bunker to help stop Dean because with Sam/Jared so injured it really wasn't believable that Sam could have beat Demon Dean. Sam looks like you can know him over with a feather.
gaelicspirit
Oct. 24th, 2014 04:31 pm (UTC)
I'm sorry to hear about the funeral. ((hugs)) I had to attend one myself this week. Never easy, that.

I forgot about the angels being wing-less. I had (incorrectly) assumed that once they were back in Heaven, they were healed. Whoopsie.

You're probably right on the contradiction, and I can see that as a stylistic choice, but it was still jarring. *frowns*

Sam needs to bulk up for sure -- get his shoulder healed and start drinking protein shakes. :)

Thank you for reading and commenting. Always great to hear from you.
(Anonymous)
Oct. 23rd, 2014 05:23 am (UTC)
I have to say I have mixed feelings about this one. I did like it; but there were issues that bothered me.

I loved the Dean/Sam confrontations, and lovedlovedloved all of Jensen's versions of Dean in this ep. (Also loved the lighting and camera angles.) While I liked the growl as part of the character, Jensen's voice made my throat hurt (and I was kind of hoping that when he got "cured" he might give up the batman voice altogether.)

I hated all the Crowley scenes (even though I love Crowley) because none of them made sense to me and all smacked of filler (holding court and punishing demons for going against him? Having a demon self-immolate in protest? WTF?) Not to mention the obvious pining for his former "bestie" (in between Crowley's longing glances and Cas pretty much telling Hannah "don't get involved with me because my heart belongs to another", I'm wondering how much the writers are playing to the slash fans.) I'm just going to ignore the Cas/Hannah scenes because, well, um. Just because. And I think you covered it all very nicely.

My main issue was with the big Sam/Dean (verbal) confrontation. I also felt that Sam was being incredibly hypocritical; and while I can understand your reasoning for why Sam made such a big about-face, my problem with this scene is that Sam never actually *told* Dean any of this. He may have come to that realization himself (unfortunately for us, offscreen), but Dean still doesn't know it. I can only hope it will come up later (and yes, probably sideways and with "no chick flick" speeches and maybe--hopefully--with a hug).

I desperately wanted Dean to address that "Purge" speech and call Sam on it, because Dean DID take it to heart (and very painfully) and I think Deanmon would have delighted in throwing Sam's purported hypocrisy in his face. Instead, we were given another lame "I blame you for mom's death" which, while it might be buried way down deep, we all know AdultDean doesn't really believe. And while he might harbor some deep resentment about giving up his life for Sam, there are so many more direct and recent accusations he could have thrown that might have hit harder. (Unless Deanmon was going for things he knew *Sam* felt guilty about--which just begs the question as to why Sam feels guilty about things he had no control over and *doesn't* feel guilty about his OWN actions that caused his brother so much pain…) In any event, I think it not only wasted the big "Dean tells what he really thinks" moment, it'll make it easier for him (and Sam) to brush off his rant this time as "I didn't mean it," because they both knew he really didn't. I desperately, desperately need Sam to acknowledge that he hurt Dean, and while he can't really say he didn't mean it (because part of him did, just like part of Dean meant this), at least he should say that he understands and forgives him. I want Dean to accept it and not brush it off. And I want them both to hold onto that for the rest of the season without recanting or dredging up old resentments on either side. Is that too much to ask?

Now, as someone else pointed out above, I don't agree that Sam talking some idiot into making a crossroads deal is anything at all like Dean agreeing to have an angel possess Sam to save his life. However, if we're going to be honest here, having Sam kidnap Dean and *force* him into taking the cure (despite Demon Dean being completely clear and absolute about *not* wanting to be cured, and with the same potential result--Dean's death, or Sam having to kill Dean if it didn't work) is very, very similar in my mind to Dean forcing Soulless Sam to take back his soul (which so many Sam fans called "rape.") All for the same reason, all with the same justification; though I haven't seen anyone complaining about it this time. But to me, everything else Sam has apparently done--from *trying* to make a deal with Crowley up to forcing Dean to take the cure--is just as much "taking away Dean's autonomy on making his own decisions" as anything Dean has done. Again, for the same reasons. So I hope they both can finally acknowledge the rights and wrongs on both sides, and accept that that's what the Winchesters do. Period.

Nancy
iontas
Oct. 24th, 2014 03:00 am (UTC)
I really agree with your point that Demon Dean should have thrown Sam's words back at him, that would have been so much more powerful! As for Sam making the decision to cure Dean, I think it is fair to say that he knows that is what Dean would want. Dean said that it was better that he die than turn into what the Mark was turning him into. I agree it is similar to what Dean did for Sam when he was soulless. I thought it was the right decision then though too!
(no subject) - gaelicspirit - Oct. 24th, 2014 04:37 pm (UTC) - Expand
supernutjapan
Oct. 23rd, 2014 02:06 pm (UTC)
Hey! You've got to come and see the gif of that hair mussing HERE :D I loved that scene and had to make one.

Sorry I'm late. My procurement of the ep has been quite delayed this season and I've been slowly dying each week seeing you all posting your reviews and I have to wait to read because I haven't even seen the show yet *boohoo*

don't worry, guys, I know we cured Dean really fast, but there are still things wrong with him they'll have to figure out...don't get mad!!
LOL! It was too quick and easy. But the way Dean was acting afterwards seemed rather ...nonchalant as well so I'm thinking we don't really have our real Dean back, just a de-demonized Dean.

I can agree that all that Demon!Dean said are a version of Dean's feelings - not necessarily separate from real Dean. But they have been twisted in order to hurt Sam just as Meg!Sam said all those things to Jo to hurt her - that's what demons do, aye?

I really enjoyed this episode, although I could have done without the Crowley scenes. Cas scenes were OK but could have been cut in half at least. Someone suggested somewhere that Hannah may sacrifice herself and give Cas her grace willingly, which might end the "cycle." I like the idea :P

Edited at 2014-10-23 02:08 pm (UTC)
gaelicspirit
Oct. 24th, 2014 04:46 pm (UTC)
Oh. My. Gosh. That .gif. *bites lip* That does all kinds of things to me. Add to that the prowling expression and you've got yourself a Gaelic puddle.

My friend, there is no late. I am happy to see you whenever you're able to come by. So long as I see you. ;)

Hmmm...Hannah sacrificing herself for Cas, so that the grace wasn't borrowed? Interesting. I like this theory. Not only no more Hannah, but we save Cas! Win/win!

See you next week!
(no subject) - supernutjapan - Oct. 24th, 2014 10:55 pm (UTC) - Expand
Page 1 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>
( 69 Tall Tales — Tell Me A Story )

Time is Relative, Stories are Forever

May 2017
S M T W T F S
 123456
78910111213
14151617181920
21222324252627
28293031   
Powered by LiveJournal.com
Designed by Tiffany Chow